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Franklin Files Message Board -> Johnny Gosch -> Mike and the JG abduction.
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TOPIC: Mike and the JG abduction.
fa diesis


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Mike and the JG abduction.
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You've probably heard about Sam Soda ( to a certain extent) ;'Tony' and 'Emilio'; from the JG Foundation as participating in the abduction of Johnny. ( Sam Soda purportedly as spotter- as to GP Bishop's info, and Gunderson's showing Bonacci photos.) In John DeCamp's book, according to Bonacci, his friend Mike is mentioned as participating in the kidnapping as well.
LukeJ has written to me that he doesn't know if Mike was at or participated in the abduction.
Anyone else have any ideas about Mike?

From John DeCamp's book;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pg. 232-234- Bonacci described to Stephens the kidnapping of Johnny Gosch, as an eye witness:

"PB: Well, we got up at, oh, before the sun got up. He [Emilio] aid he wanted to go out cause he said that he had been around here before and stuff and he said the paper boys would be going out pretty soon. He said he might be able to, that that would be the best bet. He wanted them, because he said they were easier on mornings cause there was nobody else around. Everyone else is asleep...

RS: OK..so it was just you, Mike and Emilio. And you were in his blue car, the blue Chevy. OK, then what happened?

PB: Oh, then he, well, at first he had us, they had Mike was in the back seat and he was kind of covered up with a blanket... Me I was stuck in the trunk. Because I had said something and Emilio hit me a couple of times.

RS: What did you say?

PB: Called him a dirty bastard because of the way he treated Mike... At night when we was in the hotel and stuff he'd brought ome other guy and made mike have sex with that guy. I didn't think that was right...

RS: OK, so you're in the trunk and Mike is on the floor or on the backseat covered with a blanket, and what [happened]?

PB: And then I heard them talking to somebody else at the car, but I don't know who it was cause we stopped. He was talking to somebody asking for directions; asking where some place was. And it sounded like there was more than one kid. It sounded like there was a couple of them there. And then we went around the block and he let me out of the trunk and told Mike to, he says, if you don't do what i say, I'm gonna shoot you. He has a gun he pulled out and pointed at me and says, you do what I say or I'll shoot you. We drove around...

RS: So you're out of the trunk now?

PB: Yeah. I was sitting in the back seat with Mike.

RS: You're both sitting there? Were you hidden in the back seat or were you just sitting up normal?

PB: Down low, kind of sitting on the floor. And then Emilio, I guess, I don't know what he did, but he, Mike told me, he says, when the car slows down, he says, when you feel the brakes jerk, he says, I'll grab him and you just hold him down. And so it happened quick. It's like we went up, I felt the brakes jerk, and I saw the door fly open and I saw Mike jump out and the next thing I know there was somebody, you know, he grabbed the boy and he'd thrownhim in and my job, you know we were supposed to do is just hold him down and gag his mouth so he couldn't yell or nothing. And then after we had, just, like two seconds, just spun off, tore off, got out of there."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Johnny Gosch Foundation site;

The second man involved in the kidnapping of Johnny Gosch, Sept. 5th, 1982. His name is Tony... He followed Johnny down the street shot Johnny with a stun gun and after he dropped to the ground, grabbed Johnny and threw him in the back seat of the kidnap car. The dark areas on his cheeks are "severe pock marks from acne scarring". This has been consistent in the description given by all witness's.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So Mike's supposed to grab Johnny, or Tony? Bonacci doesn't mention a stun gun being used first..or a guy with pock marks in his reporting to Stephens...also Bonacci does or doesn't mention Johnny being transferred to a van a few blocks away? Answers anyone?

Also;
Dr. Doogie who was banned from this site ( only temporarily I hope) mentioned over at websleuths that the images of 'Tony' are the exact same ones that are listed as the kidnapper of Michaela Joy Garecht from Hayward, Ca in 1988.

http://www.johnnygosch.com/
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/..._michaela.html

Noreen writes, "I have had the following composite drawing for some time and am releasing it now due to new information on Johnny's case. You will see one photo/composite is from 1982 the second is the same man approximately 10 years later. There is further information concerning this man which will be released at a later time."

Doogie: "What is curious is that the "younger" picture, when listed with the Garecht case, claims that this is what the man looked like in 1988 where he was identified as being "18 to 24 years old", yet Noreen says the picture is from 1982 (when, by using math, the guy would have been between 12 and 18).

----- the original composite was created specifically from eyewitnesses of the Garecht kidnapping in 1988.
----why is Noreen saying that the picture is from six years earlier and is of Johnny's abductor?
------why is Noreen saying that the drawing is from the time of Johnny's abduction when it was created for a different abduction six years later?
----- the composite was created by a witness in 1988.

(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgkYmp1V_H8 for the "Unsolved Mysteries" episode on the Garecht case - it confirms this fact.)

-------To try and answer my own question, probably what Noreen means is that people associated by Johnny's case viewed the Garecht composite and said that Johnny's abductor resembled the drawing. But that is not what she said. She said that the drawing was of the man in 1982.

------Oddly enough, I have since been told by someone privy to inside information in the Garecht case that the second drawing (the one that Noreen claims is a ten year age-progression of the first) was, in fact, created by an author who was writing a book about Timothy Bindner and that the drawing was specifically altered to make it closer to Bindner's appearance. It is obvious why the author would be motivated to do this, but it makes it useless for any serious investigation of either the Garecht or Gosch cases."
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I'll go check if the JG Foundation has updated their info yet. I mean, if info is dished out in an unclear and mistaken fashion, atleast it can be suggested to modify it to not lead people interested in the case astray.


-- Edited by fa diesis at 07:24, 2008-10-31

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LUKE J


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----- the original composite was created specifically from eyewitnesses of the Garecht kidnapping in 1988.
----why is Noreen saying that the picture is from six years earlier and is of Johnny's abductor?
------why is Noreen saying that the drawing is from the time of Johnny's abduction when it was created for a different abduction six years later?
----- the composite was created by a witness in 1988.

________________________________________________________________
Hope this clears up the mystery over the composite drawing, I have explained it several times before here but you may have missed it previously.


Witness's  of Johnny's kidnapping,at the corner of 42nd & Ashworth, where Emilio first approached Johnny, reported seeing a second very tall man follow Johnny after he walked away from the paper drop.

When Bonacci came forward, he reported Emilio was the driver of the car, Tony (with the acne scars on his face) followed Johnny and after Johnny dropped to the ground, Tony lifted his shoulders, Paul reached over and grabbed his legs, he was brought into the car and further subdued by Bonacci.   Paul did not ever mention "Michael" to us.  I cannot say with certainty whether Michael was there or not.

In 1996, Noreen was on the Leeza Gibbons show in L.A., with Michaela Joy Garecht's mother, who was kidnapped from Hayward, Ca in 1988.   A composite drawing was shown of a man spotted in that kidnapping,  he fit the description of the man Bonacci had been talking about all through the years.  Michaela's mother said all their witness's also remarked on the acne scarring on his face but they had no name for him.   Noreen told her that the first name is Tony but we had no last name at that time... 1996.  

The photo/composite drawing in Michaela's case was then shown to Bonacci and he positively identified the man as TONY.  It was only recently that we have learned Tony's last name.  Since the last name was learned, Noreen has been in contact with Michaela's mother to give her the last name of Tony.  And the information has been given to the Hayward Police Dept.

This is how the composite drawing in Michaela's case is also the same man in Johnny's case.  We have investigated this aspect since learning the last name and we are able to place the man in locations for both of these kidnappings, owning the correct make/model of vehicle.   We are certain it is the same man. Learning the last name has been extremely useful to us as well as the photo of Tony along with the updated photo of him.

There was an eye witness to Johnny being shot by a stun gun and falling to the ground.  This information did not come from Paul Bonacci.   We only have shared information that was given directly to us by Bonacci.   I cannot or will not speak to information he may have given elsewhere.  This information was all included in taped interviews with Bonacci.   All of this information was transcribed and both were given to the FBI years ago.  To this day, no law enforcement has ever questioned Bonacci concerning the kidnapping of Johnny.    WHY?


Luke

-- Edited by LUKE J at 11:31, 2008-10-31

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fa diesis


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Both of the 'Tony' drawings are from the Garecht case. It is incorrect to state that the date of either drawing is from 1982 as is stated on the JGF website. Both drawings are from 1988, this has been confirmed by Michaela Garecht's mother.
It would be helpful for the JG Foundatiion to modify what is written on the JGF site with correct information regarding the dates and source of the composite sketches.

Luke, when you say 'us' you are not referring to John DeCamp, I presume, but to the Johnny Gosch Foundation...Both Noreen and J.Leonard Gosch, as well as Gunderson, Roy Stephens, De Camp and numerous others have spoken with Paul Bonacci.
DeCamp, apart from writing the Franklin Files book represented Bonacci in Bonacci's lawsuit against Lawrence King and others, at the trial where Noreen testified.

John DeCamp quotes Bonacci's interview with Roy Stephens in his book, AND DeCamp was Bonacci's legal representation during Bonacci's trial against King... I find it surprising, that Bonacci's recounting of the abduction of Johnny Gosch is neither corroborated or denied by the JGF, as in other threads it has been stated that the JGF knows what happened to Johnny.

It may seem that I'm nitpicking about DETAILS, but details are often a healthy part of serious investigation.

Mike, either was or wasn't present and participated in Johnny's abduction, I don't think the presence and potential culpability of an eye witness OR participant in an abduction, is necessarily irrelevent to the case.

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echoia


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 From Why Johnny Cant Come Home by Noreen Gosch, pg. 130 & 131

 

... Paul slowly began to tell how the kidnapping took place.  He talked about a man named Emilio who was the driver of the car & also had identified a composite drawing done by an artist I had hired based on statements from witnesses.  Paul said Johnny had been photographed about 2 weeks before the kidnapping to show Emilio who they were going to kidnap the next morning.  The man who brought the photo was identified as Sam Soda.  Paul had earlier chosen Sams picture in a photo line up of 25 pictures. 

 

He explained he had been ordered to lay in the trunk of Emilios car along with Mike another boy brought along to help with the kidnapping.  After Emilio made his first contact with Johnny by asking for directions, then leaving the area, only to turn around and go back to where Johnny was sitting in his wagon, preparing to deliver his papers.  Paul & Mike were told to get into the back seat, lie on the floor and cover up with a blanket and to wait until they heard Emilio begin to speak to Johnny again.  They did as they were told.  Paul said Emilio had placed the barrel of a gun in his mouth and told him he would shoot him if he did not do as he was told.

 

When they pulled up along side Johnny sitting in his wagon, Paul & Mike started to talk to him to lure him over to the car.  They opened up the car door, Paul said a man named Tony had been told to come from behind Johnny and push him into the car.  Paul & Mike held Johnny down and placed a cloth with chloroform over Johnnys face, as the Emilio ran the stop sign and turned left onto 42nd Street and headed towards the Interstate 80.

 

There had actually been 3 vehicles in the area.  The car Emilio drove, a van parked several blocks away and a green station wagon on the street north of the kidnap site.  Sitting at a vantage point and being able to see the entire kidnapping.  The green station wagon had the type of rear door which opened from the top and the side hinge.  It was a Ford product, only available for certain years.  After learning the description of the car, I telephoned the Motor Vehicles Dept. asking for a list of vehicles owned by Sam, the man identified by Paul Bonacci.  Bingo Motor Vehicles had the entire list of vehicles owned by Sam and one of them was a Ford station wagon, green with the type of rear door which opened from the side or top.

 

The plan for the kidnapping was to grab Johnny, Emilio to meet with the driver of the van which was Tony and they would transfer Johnnys body to the van.  Then all 3 vehicles would leave West Des Moines in different directions and rendezvous at a farmhouse just outside Sioux City, Iowa.  A man named Charlie Kerr owned the farmhouse. ...



-- Edited by echoia at 18:08, 2008-10-31

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LUKE J


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Fadelis,

Paul Bonacci identified Tony by description years before seeing the composite drawing from Michaela's case.  We were able to provide a name for Michaela's mother.   It is the same man in both cases.    We are not going to modify any information concerning the composite drawing. 

Bonacci did the very best he could to give an accounting of what took place, given that he was dealing with a multiple disorder. The facts he was able to give us, we have been able to verify.    Our focus was on Emilio, Tony, Sam & Charlie.   Reports on Mike's presence have gone both ways.   Mike is/was not a critical focus of the case or the investigation.  If it is a concern for you, may I suggest you find Mike and ask him yourself or contact Bonacci. That may help settle it for you.  

For Clarification:  Leonard John Gosch is not a part of the Johnny Gosch Foundation.   

And we do know what happened to Johnny. 


I do believe you just like to argue about nothing and everything.  



-- Edited by LUKE J at 22:22, 2008-10-31

-- Edited by LUKE J at 22:33, 2008-10-31

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fa diesis


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LukeJ, Believe whatever you want to believe.

It's wonderful that you provided a name of a suspect in your case to Michaela's mother.

It's too bad that people who might otherwise trust Noreen, might shy away from doing so, if she deliberately and resolutely allows her Foundation to continue to publicly mistake dates of information and their source.

Which reports on Mike's presence go both ways?

"Mike is/was not a critical focus of he case or investigation." Why not? If he was participant in it?

Bonacci's account of the case certainly received critical focus. Perhaps this has to do with the willingness or unwillingness of witnesses to give their accounts.



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LUKE J


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Oh there you go again, making assumptions.    Just because you ask questions and stamp your feet demanding does not mean that anyone connected with Johnny's investigation has to answer them.    Frankly, it is none of your concern as to why Mike was not a focus in the case, he wasn't then and he is not now.  There is a reason Bonacci gave two different accountings of the kidnapping.   I am certainly not going to give that information in a forum on the internet.  There is a great deal going on in this investigation that you no nothing about, perhaps you need to just leave it at that concerning this issue.

I have already heard from other members of this forum who think your nitpicking is absurd.   Why don't you shift your focus to the Madeline McCain investigation?   Her parents probably need your help.

You can make all the statements you wish about this investigation and Noreen however in the final analysis, the decisions made in this case are hers, not yours.   You have written all those private messages to me asking questions, I tried to answer them but then you just began the absurd nitpicking any and all choice of words I used. So I told you in one message that I would no longer reply to your messages and  I did not because I feel this is now a game for you. So this subject is no longer open for discussion with you.

Please remember " just because you ask a question, does not oblige anyone to answer it".   In an ongoing investigation there will be some questions which can not be answered.   Most people on this forum understand that and if I can not answer a question they do understand.

Luke J  

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Pablo


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Luke:

It was only recently that we have learned Tony's last name.  Since the last name was learned, Noreen has been in contact with Michaela's mother to give her the last name of Tony.  And the information has been given to the Hayward Police Dept.
We have investigated this aspect since learning the last name and we are able to place the man in locations for both of these kidnappings, owning the correct make/model of vehicle.   We are certain it is the same man. Learning the last name has been extremely useful to us as well as the photo of Tony along with the updated photo of him.

Well, that sounds good.
Congratulations on any help you may provide on the other case.

And we do know what happened to Johnny. 
Can you say roughly what time (year, or time span-years), you developed the heart of your idea about what happend to Johnny?

I'm tempted to ask 'what happened', and suspect the answer would be 'He was kidnapped by a highly organized pedophile ring', so i'll probe just a little deeper.

Would you be willing to say you're convinced in Johnny's case, whether the principle motivation was 'entertainment'/profit or a part of an effort involving an end goal of controlling persons?

Thanks for anything you can provide.

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fa diesis


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LUKE J wrote:

Oh there you go again, making assumptions.    Just because you ask questions and stamp your feet demanding does not mean that anyone connected with Johnny's investigation has to answer them.    Frankly, it is none of your concern as to why Mike was not a focus in the case, he wasn't then and he is not now.  There is a reason Bonacci gave two different accountings of the kidnapping.   I am certainly not going to give that information in a forum on the internet.  There is a great deal going on in this investigation that you no nothing about, perhaps you need to just leave it at that concerning this issue.

I have already heard from other members of this forum who think your nitpicking is absurd.   Why don't you shift your focus to the Madeline McCain investigation?   Her parents probably need your help.

You can make all the statements you wish about this investigation and Noreen however in the final analysis, the decisions made in this case are hers, not yours.   You have written all those private messages to me asking questions, I tried to answer them but then you just began the absurd nitpicking any and all choice of words I used. So I told you in one message that I would no longer reply to your messages and  I did not because I feel this is now a game for you. So this subject is no longer open for discussion with you.

Please remember " just because you ask a question, does not oblige anyone to answer it".   In an ongoing investigation there will be some questions which can not be answered.   Most people on this forum understand that and if I can not answer a question they do understand.

Luke J  




Luke, I am not making assumptions...the dates given on the composites are mistaken. The source is not stated. True- the JFG is not obliged to reveal info, that is a good deal different than giving out false info. I have no need or interest in creating 'teams' of people, those who trust ALL the Foundations' approach to the case and those who may not.
Why do you suggest that I work on Madeleine McCain's case, and not any of thousands of other cases of missing children? For the record, you wrote ME initially through PM, not vice versa. As far as I know, this subject and others ARE open for discussion with me and other members of the board. I have no doubt that there are some questions that cannot be answered, for any of a variety of potential reasons, but I think it is fair to suggest that giving out false information publicly, might not offer or encourage folks concerned with finding missing children greater incentive. Can go both ways, of course...surely some people are going to be (duped) inspired by false info.
You have written that you know what happened, but that you don't know about Mike's presence at the abduction. It's good to learn that this is based on differing accounts Bonacci gave, as much of what has been learned of Johnny's abduction (atleast publicly) comes from
Bonacci's differing accounts..It's comprehensible to me that Bonacci might wish to protect Mike from authorities and the public eye.

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